MINWR to ban motors in 2,500 acre area, and probably more in future

[RutnNStrutn]

Well, it looks like our pals :rolleyes:, the hunter hating clowns that run MINWR are planning on banning motorized access to an area of Mosquito Lagoon that covers 2,500 acres. If they like the results of thier plan (which of course they will), they will expand their program and shut down more of the refuge to hunting and fishing. What a suprise. MINWR officials F'ing the hunters and fisherman while catering to the tree huggers and manatee F'ers!! :mad:
Yes, I realize that there is a problem when idiots tear up sea grass beds. But 99% of the time it is the fisherman who do it, not the duck hunters. Still, we are the one's who will get F'ed the worst.

http://www.floridatoday.com/!NEWSROOM/columnstoryS0427SARGENT.htm

Prop scars a problem in lagoon

BY BILL SARGENT FLORIDA TODAY

Prop scars are a dime a dozen in some sections of the redfish-rich Mosquito Lagoon.
Unknowing or uncaring anglers are leaving their marks by powering their way across grass flats with barely enough water to float a shallow-draft boat.
Not only is the practice damaging fragile sea grasses, but boats racing across the shallows are disturbing other anglers and in some cases it may be changing the habits of waterfowl and other bird life.
It must be stopped.
And it will be stopped in two of the more popular fishing areas if a proposed pole or troll rule is adopted by officials of the Merritt Island National Wildlife Refuge, which manages much of the popular fishing area northeast of Titusville. Use of gasoline engines would be prohibited in the areas.
Refuge officials will be seeking the public's input on the pole or troll plan at a workshop in Titusville on Thursday. The meeting will run from 5:30 to 8:30 p.m. at the North Brevard Public Library at 2121 South Hopkins Ave.
A second workshop is planned for May 12 at the New Smyrna Beach Regional Library at 1001 S. Dixie Freeway in New Smyrna Beach from 5:30 to 7:30 p.m.
Dorn Whitmore, a refuge official, said the plan would affect 2,500 acres of flats in the popular Tiger Shoals area on the east shore of the lagoon, plus a smaller area west of the Intracoastal Waterway spoil islands extending about one mile north from the so-called WSEG boat ramp.
"We would designate a corridor that would provide (gas-powered) accesses into the (Tiger Shoal) area," Whitmore said. "We feel that will reduce the amount of prop scaring, and reduce the impact to surrounding fishermen."
Suggestions from fisherman at the meeting will be considered for the locations of the corridors.
Most veteran guides approve of the pole or troll plan (because it will reduce competition, and keep the regular Joe's out of the areas used by guides :rolleyes: ) providing gas engines can be used in the corridors.
Whitmore said the heavy boating activity might be causing a decline in bird rookeries, plus changes in waterfowl feeding habits. One observation has been a noticeable increase in the nighttime feeding of lesser scaup ducks, which are pushed out of their feeding zones by the daytime boat traffic.
Information from aerial surveys of the Tiger Shoal area confirmed it is the most popular fishing area in the entire 21,000-acre Mosquito Lagoon with hundreds of boats counted during the surveys. Over 120,000 boats a year use the lagoon.
The plan also would affect duck hunters during the fall and winter season.
Whitmore pointed out that the so-called Glory Hole, a popular duck hunting area, shows some of the most severe prop scaring.
Whitmore said anglers, hunters, commercial fishermen, members of a guides association and officials from Standing Watch have provided input.
If the plan reduces the problems, similar restrictions may be considered for other lagoon areas, Whitmore said. :mad:

[uncle D]

Come on Rut, Where have you been? CJ hasn't been keeping you in the loop? What about that Presidential Daily Briefing? Missed that one, huh?

I announced this, oh............about a month ago. Stay close to UW's site and these things wouldn't be a surprise.

Boat use on the lagoon has increased 300% since1990. You should blame the Fla sportsman magizine before the refuge.

We,( UW) and DU sat down w/ Marc Epstein (biologist) a couple of weeks ago. We gave input. It was up on this board for disscussion before the meeting.

Duke

[N. Cook]

Does this not have the "corridor" position we supported? and also, it seems trolling motors are still allowed. As duck hunters, would we not support less high powered boat traffic in the area both day and nite? We need to continue to support access "corridors" as this can be sufficient for hunting or not based on decisions they make.....obviously,some one who hunts the area needs to look at their proposal and see if the access is reasonable. I can assure you the "grass destroyers" are going to lose......we need to be suggesting the best plan for duck hunting. The guys who have been attending these meetings have the best ideas. How can the rest of us help? Newton

[RutnNStrutn]

Actually Duke, I follow UWF's forums regularly, and read the emails I am sent. I don't recall this one.
Newton, here are my thoughts on this.
1) Being that it is MINWR, and the fact that they have a history of working against duck hunters, I am suspicious - at best.
2) I am very cautious of voting more and more restrictions upon ourselves - particularly when the damage is coming from the jerk fisherman with their large outboards using power and speed to overcome the lack of water to float their boats. Give MINWR an inch and they WILL take a mile. Go with this, and you can expect to see more restrictions and even closures in the future.
3) I am tired of jerkoff fisherman ruining it for the rest of us. Duck hunters aren't the one's doing the damage. If MINWR must restrict, let them restrict the fisherman.
4) The guides have a conflict of interests on this one. The more the area is closed, the less people will go there, and the more the selfish guides will have a pristine place for themselves and their clients.
5) Be careful what you wish for. When the restrictions leave you with a 2 hour "trolling motor" run to your spot, or worse, the whole are is shut down, remember that you supported this.
MINWR has a history of being anti-hunter and pro-treehugger.

[duckmanJR]

Rut...I share your apprehension but my read was that there are going to be "motor corridors" so that back areas can be accessed by outboard then out of the "corridor" will be pole/troll. While I hate "over-regulation" ... something needs to be done to save the lagoon... it is too shallow for ever moron to race around tearing up the flats.... enforcement will be the REAL issue...

[Steve W]

1. I agree with Rut :eek:

2. This is an issue now that the redfish tourney crowd has commercialized redfish tournaments, resulting in more flats fishermen. They want to blame duck hunters for the problem, while claiming innocence to the damage. Don't believe me? Check out this link on Fla Sportsman http://outdoorsbest.zeroforum.com/zerothread?id=147380

3. A compromise of less than 25hp or mudmotors only in these areas seem more appropriate at this time.

[RutnNStrutn]

Corridors wouldn't be a bad compromise. I just don't see MINWR doing something like that. They'd probably just put in a few token corridors, and leave most of the area hard to access. All of their money and efforts go to Blackwater and other tree hugger hangouts. Sorry, but MINWR has a bad history of screwing hunters. I'd have to see it to believe that they are working with the hunters' best interests in mind.

[Quackers]

I attended the meeting in Palm Coast with Mark Epstein and the meeting in Titusville. My concern is that the plan will favor the professional. The professional and the guy that has 35,000 to spend on a flats boat. Poling to remote shallow areas from the corridor will not be an option for the average Joe.

There were a number of quides at the meeting in Titusville. They all wanted the area extended beyond Tiger Schoals.

[Pirate91]

A quick intro before I post my .02. I'll be moving to Land O' Lakes end of June early July, so I watch all this issues closely. Doesn't DU contribute funds to MINWR? Are the folks at MINWR really aware of how NWRs are funded? It would seem that they would pay more attention to the needs of the end users that fund these places.

[N. Cook]

The UW-F members who attend the meetings have to do the best with the circumstances......they are on the spot and our VOICE. I have an email of a letter from a Mr. George Leath who heads up a group call the Mosquito Lagoon Waterfowlers Assoc. He seems to be an active DU member and on the Marsh Commitee. Do we have contact with this person and should we not look to pair up? I believe DAvid has some ideas on this as well. What is their position? I share the apprehension of some, but also know it is not to our advantage to fight a LOST battle and perhaps end up with a very bad result for duck hunters.....all they have to do is just not mark the trails with reflectors......or ban access until daylight.....politics is the art of compromise and gentle pressure!

[Converted]

Welcome to the site Pirate91

George Leath is the assistant MARSH chairman for DU Florida, he is also a UW-F member but not registered on this site.

Does anyone have any info on the Mosquito Lagoon Waterfowlers Association?

It may be more beneficial to team up rather than working seperately towards the same goals. We've got alot to offer with the web site and Yahoo group for enhanced communication.

[Pirate91]

Converted,

Thanks for the welcome. I look forward to getting involved in
UW-F when I arrive and get settled.

BTW, I like the boat you built last year and posted.

[N. Cook]

I have e-mailed Mr. Leath regarding the above.

[Novalex]

This issue was disscussed @ the State MARSH meeting & will be supported by DU.

George supplied GPS #'s to MI for corridors for the duck hunter & they will be put into place.

As far as the "Professionals" & Tournaments", that is nothing than laying blame on another user group.

Our mud motors & o/b's do more damge to the grass beds than any of you want to admit.

Suck it up boys!!!

Go to LA, AR, or AL but don't bring your mud motor.

YOU WON'T BE ALLOWED TO USE THEM IN FEDERAL WMA's.

Why?

Because they destroy the grass beds.

I get really tired of blaming the pro's & other user groups when people don't take the time to learn all about the issues or attend the meetings.

I don't guide out of a 35,000 flats boat but I pole my clients around in a 8,000 rigged jon-boat.

Suck it up boys!!!

Support it or lose the right to use mud motors like or northern neighbors ALREADY HAVE!!!


CJ

p.s. As a member of the Indian River Guides Association, I also supoort the "Pole/Troll/Wade" only zones not just in MI, but all up & down the IRL.

[N. Cook]

Lots of truth in your reply. Jeff. Thanks to George for doing the GPS work. Hope he replys regarding teaming up with UW-F on projects as well as being a current member. Cooperation carries a lot of weight. I agree that often the "pros"catch a lot of unearned flack and most are conservation minded because their income depends on well managed areas holding healthy quanties of game or fish. There are states where the pros bully the public sportsman.....Ark. is full of grief about flat truck tires at WMA ramps and intimidation at blind sites....but so far I have heard little of this here.

[Quackers]

Since my post mentioned the 35,000 flats boat, I "assume" your post was aimed at mine. There was no attempt to lay blame on professionals. I will stick to my premise that they and the high end flats boat owner will have an advantage over the average guy. That is all I meant. I see no blame there.

I fish the "no-motor" zone as often as possible. In my case that is less than a dozen times a year. There are reasons for going there though. If they put these new rules in effect, maybe I will have another place to go.

[RutnNStrutn]

Originally posted by Capt Jeff
As far as the "Professionals" & Tournaments", that is nothing than laying blame on another user group.
Our mud motors & o/b's do more damge to the grass beds than any of you want to admit.

I call bullsh*t on that one CJ. Duck hunters use the area for a couple of months a year. And, they motor in and out of their spots, they don't motor all over the place looking for fish. You wanna put the blame where the blame belongs? Then put it on the fisherman, and while you're at it, put the restrictions on the fisherman that are doing the damage.
I'm sure the guides - who have better equipment and boats than the average schmoe - aren't the ones doing the majority of the damage. No, that "honor" belongs to the weekend warrior A-holes who motor through the flats and grass beds with their big outboards at half-tilt. How do I know this? Because those A-holes also have no respect for duck hunters who have their spreads out. I have watched many a fisherman A-hole "motor" by, tearing up the environment, while ruining my hunting.
No CJ, the problem isn't the duck hunters, and we shouldn't be the ones punished for the irresponsible actions of the A-hole weekend warriors, particularly when the ones who will benefit from this new regulation will be the well outfitted guides with their flat's boats and push poles, and wealthy clients.
BS, BS, and more BS. Before you know it we are gonna over-regulate ourselves right out of our recreation.:rolleyes:

[northfla_hunter]

but how would you explain and justify letting duck hunters use motors (esp mud motors that tear up vegetation worse than an outboard) and not the fishermen??? just aint gonna happen. i think they should put an exception into guanas rules allowing bigger mud motors but again, how do you tell the fisherman that a duck hunter is more priviledged than he is (thats how hes gonna see it, he wont understand that a mud motor and outboard dont compare hp for hp)??

even if it is the fishermen doing it (the most damage), everyone is gonna be punished because theyre all using the same land. better that some restrictions are put in place now rather than waiting until the biologists come in and say enough damage done, nobody is allowed AT ALL!!

as always, just my opinion...

[Pirate91]

'Cause duck hunters put more money in the NWR system than fisherman? They usually only use it 60 days out of the year vs 365 if the fisherman wants. That'd be my thinking, but I'm not in charge.

[uncle D]

I'm not sure who pays more.

Sure duckers buy Fed Stamps, and State license. Some join DU, some don't. I don't know how much Pittman/Robertson goes to NWRs.

Fishermen buy state license and stamps. There is also a fuel tax at marinas to go towards National Eustrine Programs and maybe some gear is taxed.

All in all, sportsmen use and abuse, but the refuge pays w/ habitat loss. Habitat loss means animal life loss. With animal life gone, no need for sportsmen.

Precentage wise, I would say that the fishermen,(be it weekend warriors or the pros) use it 75%+ of the time, but let's not make it an us and them. I've fish and hunted the refuge.

Who knows maybe Fin and Feathers or Chet will come over and take yall layout hunting in that 2500ac. honey hole.

Duke

[Converted]

I haven't hunted or fished in that area so take this for what it is worth.

I seems like the ball is rolling and I don't get the feeling that anyone, duckers or fisherman are going to or should stop it. I believe there will be more and more no motor or troll and pole zones in that area.

Shouldn't we as an organization support access corridors for both fishing access to the flats and hunting access to the impoundments? Is someone on top of this? Are plans being drawn up as we sit back and fuss about who is doing what?

No one is going to provide access for hunting unless there is a VOICE at the table where decisions are made pointing out the need for such access.

Save the drama for SDH. Lets get a plan and get it in front of the people that need it.

.02

[uncle D]

I thought that there was a plan.

As mentioned, I bought this issue up, Ron, (Quackers) went to the meeting with UW's position, (discussed at Melborne meeting).

It would behoove UW to back track now and to be non-supportive of conservation measures taken by refuge.

Yes there should be representitive at meetings and UW was there.

Duke

[N. Cook]

Duke is right....we agreed to take a basic position on ACCESS. At the Melbourne meeting we did not yet have the particulars on the banning of motors and how large an area was involved....when Capt. Jeff (and Joe) gave us the details the discussion began in this string....Despite some members misgivings, the consensus seems to be that ACCESS remains the major goal and opposing the no motor ruling a losing position for UW-F, therefore, our UW-F representatives have taken the stance for a reasonable number of marked access trails with reflectors for night navigation. Frankly, we do not have to agree or disagree on the motor ban.....just stay with our agreed to position at the Melbourne meeting....PROTECT ACCESS FOR DUCK HUNTERS TO THE AREA. Thanks to Quackers, Duke, Joe and Capt Jeff for being "at the table" with this position. And special thanks to George Leath for doing some heavy lifting on this.

[RutnNStrutn]

Originally posted by Converted
Save the drama for SDH.

Your sour grapes takes much away from your point of view. :rolleyes:

[Converted]

Sorry if I offended you Rut, just trying to focus on what needs to be done and maybe it is being done. If someone has specifics please post up. The point I think needs to be made is that pole and troll zones are going to happen. The ball is rolling. No one is going to stop it. Let's do everything we can to direct the ball so that it hits the goal that helps duck hunters.

We need someone who knows the area to get a plan together with specifics. ie. we need an access corridor from Lat. xxx.xx, Lon yyy.yy to Latxxx.xx, Lon yyy.yy with markers every zzz yards and the markers need to be reflectorized for night time use. We need another corridor at..... and ......etc!

Leave it to others to come up with the details and you might not like the results.

;)

[RutnNStrutn]

I already don't like the results. I'm sure there are some offenders in our ranks, but the problem isn't the duck hunters. It's the fisherman who are on the flats, without proper equipment, tearing the place up, 365 days a year. When I didn't have a Go-Devil, I ran my outboard in until I ran out of the proper amount of water. Then I got out of the boat, raised the motor, and walked it in. Too bad the fisherman don't do the same.
Not surprisingly the guides are pushing for this to happen. They want formerly open waters shut down so that only people with special rigs and expensive equipment (ie. guides or wealthy fisherman) can access the waters. Translated, prime fishing grounds on public waters for them to take their clients to and make money courtesy of the taxpayers.
The corridor thing ain't gonna fly. They might allow it for a year or two, but there will be violaters who run their motors anyway. Most of them will be fisherman, a few of them will be hunters, but the result will be the same. The waters will be made into another "no motor zone", and only the guides and the tree-huggers will be happy.
And no, I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist. Watch and see.

[Quackers]

I got the same feeling at the meeting. Guides want this big time. They were the ones pushing to extend the area. The other side of this is that if something isn't done, they have the power to shut the whole thing down. The beds need protecting and they are taking this to the public to find a solution.

Bottom line from the meeting was that this plan will take years (2 at least) to put into effect.

The reflectors and marked passages are on the drawing boards. Instead of ugly PVC or heavy wood poles we suggested buoyes. Reflective buoyes. They will look somewhat similiar to a buoyes for a crab trap only bigger and brighter.

Access for duck hunters will not be an issue. We will have motorized access to the traditional areas on the east side. Some poling might be neccessary, but not much. My guess is that Rut is right. Enforcement will be tough. They are losing people due to funding. People will run the whole way.