SFWMD Recreation Meeting 2/13 STA Proposals

[N. Cook]

We will need to get our 2006/07 objectives on record asap. I suggest the following be submitted....please comment, add to etc.

1. Open STA 2 to hunting.

2. Raise permits to 40 pairs of hunters in STA 5 and STA 3/4.

3. Begin afternoon hunting session at 1:30 instead of 2 pm.

4. Add "replacements" to the walkin rules.

There is a good chance STA 1W will not be ready for hunting next season. There will be consideration of hunting STA 3/4 on both Sat. and Sun. to compensate for the loss of hunting opportunities. (this was done this year when STA 1 W was closed the last weekends)

Additionally, UW-F will be asking the "No Trespassing" signing in the District, especially on the Kissimmee Chain of lakes and the river, be repositioned based on Soveriegn Lands laws, which should open large areas of marsh and near shore waters to public recreation.

Again, input from UW-F members and friends is welcomed.

[darkwing duck]

I say we increase permits to 75 in 3/4 and 60 permits in 5. Both places can handle that many people as well as vehicles. We should go fo more then go down from there.

[labraduck]

Newton, my comments:
#1 I agree that we should lobby for the opening of STA2, even though it might take a couple of years to sway the decision makers.

#2 I agree with Darkwing that STA3/4 can hanle more hunters safely than STA5, though I don't propose a precise number.

#3 It's only fair to give the afternoon hunters more time. I would also adjust the morning schedule 30 minutes, having all morning hunters out by noon. Please bear in mind that is not possible to hunt until sunset, collect birds and dekes, paddle back to the levee, load the boat and gear, and drive to the gate in the alotted 30 minutes.

#4 No real opinion, but "replacements" sounds OK to me.

Also, if STA1 remains closed, and STA3/4 is open on both Saturday and Sunday, then separate permits should be available to hunt STA3/4 on a Saturday AND a Sunday. This may be assumed, but we may want to seek clarification up front.

And lastly, I agree about the reposting of No Trespassing signs. I would would like to see marsh areas along the Kissimmee and St. Johns Rivers open to the historic flood plain boundary.

[QuackR WhackR]

Newton:

I agree with the opening of STA2.

I think that 40 pairs of hunters is good.. If we push for too many permits, they may balk at it.. Work up gradually..

I think that 1:00 p.m. cutoff for morning hunters would be better.. Like Labraduck said, you can't hunt up to suset and still be out in the 30 minutes..

#4 sounds good to me...

And I agree with repositioning the signs..

I hope to be able to make the meeting..


Dave

[godvlman]

Newton,

What do you mean by replacement hunters?? Are you talking about someone using my permit because I cant make it?? If that is the case I will have permits for sale next year for anyone who needs them!!! Just let me know!!!

I also think that hunting STA 3/4 on Saturday and Sunday is too much pressure!!! Look at Sundays numbers for the last 2 weekends because of hunting it both days. Maybe trade the Sunday out for a day during the week if possible!!

I also think that you extend the time on the afternoon hunts later in the evening not earlier.

Just my opinion...

[N. Cook]

The system is: Permit holders are checked in up to one hour before shooting time....permits after that time who have not shown are forfeited and walk-ins are then checked in as they arrived and placed their names on the walk-in list. The total number is 25 pairs of hunters.

The walk-in list is maintained during the hunt and if a pair of hunters comes out (usually limited early) the next name on the walk-in list is allowed in. (This is the replacement part of the system)

The replacement part is not written into the current rules and could be easily stopped by a complaint....once it is in the rules any change has to go through the FWC and the public meetings.

[godvlman]

Newton,

Thanks for clarifiing that for me I did not know what was meant by "replacement hunters". By all means if that keeps the "walk in" system alive I am all for it... I would seriously think about hunting 3/4 two days a week back to back like that. If it comes down to it... maybe split the zones to east west or north south allowing one for each day... Just a thought

[duckmanJR]

Johns point is well taken..Hunt two cells on saturday and two others on sunday.

I also think that the out 30 minutes after sunset is unfair to afternoon hunters since many times the best flight is just before sunset and it is almost impossible to get out in 30 minutes. If they give an hour in the morning to walk ons...an hour is right for afternoon hunters.

[DuckManDan]

I am all for allowing more hunters into STA 3/4 and 5

Opening 3/4 Saturday and Sunday would be great but there is also the risk of too much pressure on the birds...I really don't know

[Randy Clark]

the sunday hunt we hunted was a bust not at all like a saturday hunt i think if you add more numbers but maybe not more days weather may have been a factor but i am not sure about that the birds we saw flew high or stayed tight

[DuckManDan]

I hunted the last sunday and limited out but didnt hear to much other shooting

I really cannot support opening STA 3/4 or any other STA 2 days in a row......Maybe open it a day during the week???

[Steve W]

You guys that use the area know better than me, but I would caution you against having to many hunters hunting the birds. It seems you have a good thing going now with 25 permits a day twice a week and I would to you having 50-75 a day run off your birds.

Maybe the sitation is totally different than what we have up here, but it is ruining the No. FLA hunting having too many people in the WMAs.

After 2-3 weeks the birds are gone due to pressure.

I am using PCS and Guana as my example.

But I may just be totally off base as the birds seem to want to be in the STAs regardless of the pressure. The gate checks certainly seem to indicate this is the case.

[Converted]

Keep in mind that one of the most often heard complaints is "guys set up right on top of me" "too many shooters and not enough hunters" etc. etc. If there is a consenses to add more folks then I think there may need to be an "assigned" spot (similar to goodwin) to keep everyone spread out. That would bring it's own set of problems.

Can STA 3/4 handle 40 groups? Probably, when the birds are there, but it could get pretty crowded in a few spots when the birds are scarce.

A day during the week would be a great addition however SFWMD has not allowed the idea in the past. We can certainly ask them to reconsider a Wednesday hunt on STA's with no current construction activity.

[Mehrenfl]

Maybe a good compromise to adding more groups would be to add an additional hunter to the already 25 groups. That would increase the number of hunters by 50%, but would really not take up that much more room as long as it was required that you had to hunt within "X" yards of the permit holder. Just a thought.

[Randy Clark]

i agree with that line of tought because i am sure their are more people than two that like to hunt together for me the three or four works out ok and also as he pointed out there would be a tendency to hunt in the same area where more group numbers means more people setting up near you i dont actually like tm goodwins approach because if they are nopt flying over your fifty acres you are out of luck but also understand we are preaching to the quoir about setting up close to others which brings up sing boards but than again is the group that setts up to close going to pay attention to a sign

[novaalex]

I think that Jeff's idea is a new angle and a very good one. I think all permits should be good for 3 people instead of two. Gentlemen you could write in all the laws you want and if there's no enforcement it won't be done. Replacement/walkin it's all the same to the people who don't want us there to begin with, semantics in my opinion. In the end rules will not keep us on these properties if our behavior is driving us out. John that was also a very good point about splitting the cells but you and I know that the birds will eventually leave because of the pressure. That being said it has always been UW's stand to drive the birds out in order to restore migration patterns. Regretfully, I believe that this is a flawed concept because the extra pressure will push birds further south not back to the Lake or PUA. They migrate south! Open STA2! If STA1 is closed fine get it right for next year. Learn to be appreciative and dont automatically ask for a replacement hunt at 3. It may pay to sound humble and say, "Guys we just want to make sure everything is working correctly at 1W!" Besides the Sunday hunts at 3/4 were a bust!!! You want more hunters take Jeff's idea make the permits good for three people. Last but not least why is this post on the public forum?

[Mehrenfl]

I have to give credit of the idea to Jack Bylsma.

[DuckManDan]

Last but not least why is this post on the public forum?

Maybe because this concerns more people that just the ones that have paid and by posting it here people will see what this group is doing and join

Adding another person to a permit would be great....I dont know how my times this season I camped out with my 2 buddies so we could all get in and hunt

Dividing the 3/4 up is just stupid...Almost everyone heads to 2 areas in there and we will be by yourselves away from almost everyone we limited out everytime and shot ducks ranging from teal, ringers, redheads, pintail,mottled, shovler, and scaulp....There is over 16,000 acres and everyone heads to the same 2 spots and the cell I hunted there would maybe be 1 or 2 other groups

[novaalex]

Thank you for your wonderful insight on how public internet forums work. I have no idea nor do I care how long you have been hunting the STA's. I will tell you that the first year that STA5 was open conditions were a great deal different than they are today. In fact you could use the south cell of STA1W last year-vs-this year as a great example of how things change. It may not appear to you to be a good idea to alternate the cells. I tell you that it is ideas like this and the three permit one that will resonate with the analytical thinkers of the SFWMD. The habitat at 3/4 may change drastically being that it is the largest of all the STA's. I take that back it has changed drastically. A year ago there was a thick carpet of hydrilla in that place. Go on the property now and I doubt you will find as much. I can guarantee you that there are birds in all 4 cells, not just the two you shot in. Alternating the cells may listen the impact of two hunting days. I would also suggest the Goodwin method of Saturday/Tuesday. I would not support back toback days!

[N. Cook]

Just to try to keep the good conversation going but also to make a point or two clear.....hunting on the STAs will be restricted to SAt. and Sun. as long as construction is involved and testing by the managers of the water and vegetation....which is every day during the week and some weekends which they have mostly worked around the hunts.

Hunting during the week is not an option on the STAs. We are working on the Reservoirs as simply "small WCAs" and hope to have them open during the week.

We have already expanded the hunting to multiple cells and spread parking spots to overcome the possibility of a construction project being started during season....allowing us to switch to other cells. There is a way to move hunting from one set of cells to another and that could be proposed if a consensus to do so is reached.

The changing habitat in the cells makes it difficult to determine until just before the season which ones will have hunting habitat.....some may be cattain monocultures or be too shallow and muddy, etc etc. Or in a "vegetation growth" state where hunting is not allowed. Makes it difficult to decide how to divide the cells into "todays and tommorows hunts".

The three in a group is an interesting concept.....two was selected originally because of the capacity of canoes and kayats was considered......

Thanks for keeping the ideas coming.

[novaalex]

I figured that during the week is out of the question but hunting on two consecutive days in the same cells will be detrimental to the hunting experience on the second day and in the preceding weeks. Evidence is clearly available in the check station data for STA 3/4 last two weeks of the season. Yes I know that the purpose of the STA's is not duck hunting but the purpose of UW-F is to increase the quality of duck hunting for Florda hunters. This may be the classic case of less being more. If I had to decide between having quality hunts throughout the year on Saturday and having the ducks run out after the break because we are hunting Saturday and Sunday, I would definitely pick Saturday only. You have to be able to look at this objectively and see how we appear in the eyes of the managers. If next year we only have two STA's open then so be it, lets not risk sounding like little babies there are other properties that we could open like the CERP property south of Labelle. As Newton always says we must look at the big picture. The more I think of it the more i like the three per permit rule. My Indian River square transom canoe fits three people, no problem!

[Randy Clark]

we took four with one kayak many trips but once we were setup itwas great not what i would suggest to do but it can work and that was with two permits also just in case someone thought differnt last year we used a bigger canoe and had three people in it id personal agree with one more person per permit and not having a saturday sunday hunt

[jtlillia]

We Have To Watch Over Hunting 3/4.

I Agree To Work On Opening Sta 2 And Any Other If Possible

Also Work On More Public Hunting Areas In Kissimmee Area And Northern Florida

[N. Cook]

I will do a little side conversation with Jerry Krenz on the three person idea.....I do not like to suprise the District's managers with a written proposal that has not already been vetted. (just good politics to have the answer before you make a written proposal....even if it is NO and you then put it in writing to do battle).

I like the idea....and there is no reason not to go for more "parties" as well.

The two day hunting could be done with different cells.....and if STA 1W vegetates rapidly it might be a mute issue. With the coming expansion of the STAs to up to twice their current size they could easily handle two day sessions on different cells.....need to weigh the ability to set the precedent next season which would probably allow all the larger STAs to have two day hunting in the future on different cells. Both Sat. and Sun. hunting on the STAs had been strongly resisted up to now.

[novaalex]

Newton:

I have had various members from my region express the following concerns:

1) The need or desire to schedule a cleanup day through Jerry Krenz for the STA's. It would obviously serve as a gesture of good will and help to restore any luster we may have lost because of complaints concerning trash.

2) A concern about hunting two consecutive days at STA 3/4 unless there is a division of cells which can be hunted on the given days.

3) The opening of STA2 and reopening of STA1W along with the various CERP projects and access to district lands which have only been recently posted with No Trespassing signage.

4) The opening of the C332 Water Reservoir in Southern Dade County which is adjacent to Rocky Glades and Everglades National Park. This entire area encompasses land that was previously managed by the FWC and hunting was permitted, now it has been closed.

5) All of the members that I have spoken to agree on the extra guest theory per permit as the best way of getting more hunters on these properties. What this does is it theoretically allows the managers to cling on to the 25 permit number but by adding the extra guest you have increased by 50% the amount of people through the gate without all the extra vehicles, canoes, and associated damage.

[godvlman]

Newton or Alex,

A few other things that may be done is getting with the FWC to schedule some controlled burns.. If done at the right time of the year could be very benificial. The Holy Land WMA is well grown over (99% of it any way) with it being adjacent to STA 3/4 I believe that could and has been a great waterfowl hunt area but the vegitation needs to be burned off and I know there are many more areas out there that are in the same situation. The biologist were out there the other day burning off 1300 acres in WMA 3 and I believe in Holy Land and it took I believe less than a day. However it has to be done at the right time of the year to be benificial. If burned now it will be grown in by November. This may also take alot of pressure off the STA,s especially if the area backs up to the STA and the waterfowl are bouncing back from one area to the other like years ago. Like i said I dont know what kind of relationship we have with the FWC or what there procedures are for burning but It may be something to think about

[novaalex]

That's exactly the kind of site specific information that we need!

[godvlman]

If burned in time I cant tell you how many hundreds or even thousand of acres that would be available for duck hunting.... The same with cutting trails... I know on the North side of Alligator Alley years ago they cut some trails ( I believe Steve wrote about it in the Sun Sentinel) what a impact that had on the improvement of duck hunting... It was and is still a huntable area that we now have acess to. There are many more areas out there that are open to the public that are just overgrown or no way to get to them even with the high dollar airboats or mudmotors!! ( believe me I have tried!!!)

From my understanding if burned right (by burning the muck) I think you would find hunting the areas ALMOST better than the STA's

[novaalex]

It wasn't too long ago that hunters had no credibility in the eyes of the agencies. Back then we were the ones in the back of the room hootin and hollerin and carrying a plastic cup to spit in. Well some of us still carry the plastic cup(me included) everywhere we go but our ranks have grown in knowledge and delivery of the facts that we always knew about. John this info that you are talking about is precisely the local knowledge that we need from all areas of the state so that regional directors and officers can hammer the truth home to our elected officials, state agencies, and anyone who stands in the way of our hunting opportunities.

[N. Cook]

I spoke with Jason the last day I hunted STA 3/4 and he said he had done a small burn in Holeyland of about 300 acres and they planned to do more....he agreed that you simply could not burn too much out there.....things may be going in the right direction.

[N. Cook]

Alex. email me paticulars on the C332 Reservior and I will print them off and carry it with me to inquire what the District's position is.