Mud motor weight

[LFTDJEEP426]

Heres the deal. I have a 14' john boat that I'm trying to finish rigging for duck hunting. I'm debating on getting a small outboard (15 to 20hp) or a small mud motor. I don't have a trailer and don't want one, I just want to be able to throw it in the back of the truck and go. I've never owned a mud motor and don't have any experience with one but are they super heavy compared to a small outboard? I'll be hunting with guys but want to be able to load and unload by myself just in case. I also plan on running around the St. Lucie river quite a bit with this rig and don't know if a mud motor would suck for that or not. Looking for some input..... :00000011:

[standby]

I have a 6.5 Honda powered longtail that weighs in at 70 pounds ,and is easy to load up - it will power a small boat with light load 10 miles per hour -

There are a few companies like copperhead that are making some very nice ultralight shortshafts - but I have never used one that small , so I cant tell you how well they perform

I would avoid standard outboards if you are wanting to duck hunt -- A standard 20 HP outboard with a clogged up prop will go exactly 0 /ZERO miles per hour

[rmenasco]

Marsh mellow mufflers is now selling a super light long tail that comes from Thailand. It has half the rigging that is in a typical long tail.

http://www.marshmellowperformance.com/

Go to their webpage and click on products.

Its called the tadpole

[FastDuck]

I would like to ask a couple questions too, like all of have said there are a lot options out there. What is the bottom width on your boat? and is it a riveted boat. If your bottom width is 36 to 42 inches I would go with the 6hp long tail, or the copper head both great motors. The copper head is hard to find used but there are quite a few 5.5's and 6's that people are parting with. If your bottom width is a 44" or bigger there is a 13hp Beavertail that is out there that is pretty nice not too heavy either weighs in the neighborhood of 100lbs still very light and easy to handle. Neither motor is a speed demon but it will get you through some thick stuff.

[LFTDJEEP426]

It is a 36" bottom, 14' long.... riveted unfortunately. I paid $100 with a title so I'm not complaining. Like everyone else these days, I'm trying to do this on a pretty tight budget. I've got about $500 to spend on something which is why I'd been looking at a small (older) outboard. There is a guy with a 20hp beavertail on another local web-site that is pretty rusty but is only 5 years old. I'm not trying to create a death machine but I have the transom beefed up A LOT on this little boat. I did have a 12' with a 20hp outboard on it a few years ago in college. It was dangerous but was fine if you respected it and knew how to drive it. I have absolutely zero experience with the go-devil/mud motors so I don't know how they react and what stresses they put on a boat's transom different than an outboard. Most likely there will only be me and another guy going hunting (plus gear) with the occasional third.

I'm scratching my head on this one. The deal is, I'm looking at a pretty long run to get out to where I think I want to hunt. (45 minutes at 25 mph: approximately) so I don't think I could stand having a motor that only pushes the boat 10 to 15..... it would take forever.

What kind of speeds do these motors push a boat compared to an outboard of the same HP? I've checked out some videos on youtube and some of these boat really ride out well.

[over/under]

Where are you hunting that you need to run 19 miles? A small hp long tail will get you may places that a outboard wont. You will not get much speed from a longtail of the same outboard hp

[LFTDJEEP426]

Its not quite 19 but is is every bit of 12 miles. Here is my thinking though. Its a small and very light john boat. With waders and a good push pole, I should be able to make it work. I just don't see how I can hoist a mud motor in and out of the boat making sure not to turn it on its side, blah blah blah..... and then take it to the river and run around with it too. I'm sure it won't be ideal having an outboard but if I duck hunt 2 months out of the year and then the other 9 months average I'd take it out I'm hating the mud motor it just doesn't seem worth it to me. I still don't know though. I'm sure this is as frustrating to you guys listening to my indecisiveness as it is to me..... bare with me.

[over/under]

its all a compromise, I have a 14ft fiberglass boat that is very light w/ a 6.5hp longtail. the whole deal fits in the back of my pickup, and I can launch it solo anywhere. I would not use that same boat to go fish any open water.

[Esteban]

Hmm...interesting dilemma you have there. I have a 14 ft jon boat and I run both an 8 hp outboard which gives me about 16 mph, and a 13 hp longtail which will give me around 10 mph loaded by myself. You can drop off 2-3 mph on each one with an additional person on board depending on how big they are. You're going to get a lot better speed with the outboard because you can get that flat bottom boat up on plane a lot easier and keep it there, not so easy to do with a longtail. To get the same speed with a longtail you almost have to have twice the horsepower but you also get twice the weight as well which makes the back end drag.

I used to run a 6 hp longtail on this boat and it would do maybe 8-9 mph by myself loaded for hunting, about 5-6 with a second person. You get about half the speed with a longtail than you would with an outboard for the same horsepower, it's all about the gearing. If you're running 12 miles one way you'll be better off with the outboard as long as it's fairly clear water (meaning not topped out with hydrilla or other submerged vegetation). As you say, you can pole your way to your hunting spot.

As for weight, that little 6 hp longtail I had weighed in at 70 lbs. The 13 hp I currently have comes in at around 145 lbs. It's a Beavertail, and they advertise their 13 hp at either 145 lbs for the standard or 125 lbs for their aluminum frame. Either one is probably too heavy and cumbersome to manhandle off and on the back end of your boat. It was fairly easy with the 70 lbs on the 6 hp, but no way could I handle the 13 hp by myself.

If you're looking for speed to run a fair distance, either an outboard or one of the newer short tail surface drives would be the ticket. Problem is, those short tail motors will cost you a fair penny as there don't seem to be too many used small ones out there. Just my two cents worth.

[FastDuck]

The problem your going to run into with that narrow a boat is the mud motor has a higher profile and cause the boat to want to list side to side so to put a 13hp is a little risky in my opinion. I had a fisher back when walmart sold them and I put a 6hp long tail on it and it was a little hairy for me but I am 6'5" and weigh 275lbs so it was undersized. The 6 hp would be the biggest I would put on it for a safety reason but that is me. Both motors either way like others have said your not going to get a whole lot of speed out of them. Taking the 6hp on and off is pretty easy and not too cumbersome. You can find one fairly cheap but you will have to shop a little to find one. By the time you add gear and build a blind you will be rubbing your gunnels on the water as it is.

[swilli1054]

If you're looking for speed to run a fair distance, either an outboard or one of the newer short tail surface drives would be the ticket. Problem is, those short tail motors will cost you a fair penny as there don't seem to be too many used small ones out there. Just my two cents worth.

I use a Mud Buddy Mini HD 9HP, it weighs 130ish pounds...it doesn't come off the boat!!

There are a couple of new entries in the short tail, small motor size that are lighter than the Mud Buddy. I think that some of them are in the 70-80 pound class.

[LFTDJEEP426]

Allow me to pose this question. I've seen on a couple of web-sites where they make weld-on flotation for the rear of your boat. If I were to make one (or two) of these enclosed flotation boxes and attach them to the rear of my 1436, do you think it would then support the weight of the 20hp beavertail I'm looking at?

Also, are these motors (long tails) very stable or unstable. I'm thinking of the safety issues, or lack thereof, associated with this type of motor on my narrow boat.

Any thoughts on either subject?

[Esteban]

Again, this is an interesting subject. I’m assuming this boat is riveted and not welded which makes a big difference. Yes, the add on floatation pods will give you more lift on the back end and will help with the floatation/planing aspect of your boat. Having said that, however, these riveted jon boats are generally made of significantly thinner aluminum and can be difficult to weld. You would need someone that really knows what he’s doing to get that right, if at all, and I’d probably even ask the manufacturer of the pods if they would recommend doing that. Maybe it’s perfectly fine, but I tend to be conservative when it comes to boat safety.

According to their website, it doesn’t appear Beavertail makes a 20 hp, they go from the 13 right to a 24. However, they do say the 24 hp weighs 5 lbs less than their popular 20 hp so maybe they still make it and just don’t list it. What I’m getting at is that they list their 24 hp at about 170 lbs which I think is too heavy for this boat. I believe the hp rating on that 14x36 is probably either a 15 or 20 for an outboard, and those will weigh in at less than 100 pounds so I’d be concerned about adding too much weight to the back end. I’ve got a 13 hp Beavertail on my 14x36 that’s about 145 lbs and that’s probably too heavy. I know for a fact that I definitely wouldn’t want go heavier. When I put a full size battery in the back I can’t really get it fully on plane at all so I know its tail heavy. When I’m running by myself I put an extra battery and a concrete block in the front end just to level it out and even then it doesn’t plane smoothly like it does with my 8 hp outboard.

As for it being unstable, that’s a tricky question. Most people, including myself, run these longtails while standing up so I’d have to say that it can be more unstable as the center of gravity is higher, especially since the entire motor sits above the transom. However, if you are careful, and don’t try anything dumb you should be able to handle it Ok. But any boat can be unstable if it’s overloaded so take that into consideration if you’re thinking of putting that 175 lb 20 horse longtail on the back and especially if you ever add a second person. That just sounds like it could be trouble to me.

You sound as though you’re looking for speed out of this thing, especially if you’re running 12 miles one way, and you won’t get that out of a longtail, they just aren’t set up for speed. Power and torque, all you want, speed is different. To get that you’ll have to go with an outboard or a short tail which is geared and acts more like an outboard. I just don't think you should ever compromise safety for the sake of saving a few minutes running time, it's just not worth it. It's easier to just get up a half hour earlier. That’s just my take on it for what it’s worth…

[LFTDJEEP426]

I totally agree on the safety issue. Early in the morning in a bunch of camo with gear and usually a buddy, you don't want to tempt fate. I really appreciate the honest opinion. I'm guessing that I might just get a small out board and deal with the shallow water issues by poling and wading (we could all use the exercise). There just aren't any small mud motors out there for sale that don't cost a fortune. I'm not complaining, just stating facts. Maybe with the outboard, I'll get to the area faster and by the time I've polled to the blind it might even out time wise with the guys with the mud motors. If something comes up for sale I can always sell the outboard!

[FastDuck]

You can look at a copper head they are a 6hp surface drive I think they are around $2495 they are a great little motor too. That handles more like an outboard and are a lot lighter than any longtail. Esteban is right on the money with what he is saying though.

[bluewing]

Allow me to pose this question. I've seen on a couple of web-sites where they make weld-on flotation for the rear of your boat. If I were to make one (or two) of these enclosed flotation boxes and attach them to the rear of my 1436, do you think it would then support the weight of the 20hp beavertail I'm looking at?

Also, are these motors (long tails) very stable or unstable. I'm thinking of the safety issues, or lack thereof, associated with this type of motor on my narrow boat.

Any thoughts on either subject?

I have a 1962 model 14x36 riveted jon with a 21hp MB long tail on it. My grandfather bought it the year I was born and it has been handed down through 4 generations now of my family. (It now belongs to my son.)

Runs 17-18mph with me, decoys, blind, etc. I installed a 3/8" aluminum full transom with 1-1/4 aluminum angle bracing, then welded two flotation pods onto. Myself and one other can easily haul it over dikes and it runs great in the really skinny stuff! Pushes heavy loads well. I've never felt "unsafe" in it at all. Of course it is NOT a boat for the big waters like intercoastals and larger lakes. It is perfect for waters like East Gator Creek and Emeralda Marsh.

Of course I must admit that my dad replaced most of the rivets on the bottom of he hull with titanium sur-locks (left over from the F-15 conformal fuel tank project he worked on), so leaking is not an issue. We then covered the bottom with steel-flex.

However, that said I am seriously considering a smaller short tail. Weight difference is minimal, (probably less), than the long tail and it will be safer to operate if I'm sitting down. (Sid - You may be hearing from me soon!)

[LFTDJEEP426]

I'd love to see some pictures of the floats you welded onto the rear of your boat. and what is steel-flex? Is it a structural thing or a bed-liner type coating? I'm still on the fence, don't want the boat to be dangerous but don't want to waste my money either.

[D Duck]

Steelflex is a slick coating for the bottom of the hull. Get it at Fasco:

http://www.fascoepoxies.com/products.html

It's the STEELFLEX SUPER SLICK EPOXY COATING #9X-2000

[bluewing]

I'll try to get some pics this weekend. You're welcome to stop by and see it anytime. Send PM if you want to come by.