snakes

[Randy Clark]

seen some thing in a magazine talking about snake antivenom . is this available and is it easy to administer. shelf life?

[g8rvet]

Not sure if you mean the antivenin (or antivenom, same thing) or do you mean the snakebite vaccine? They are 2 different things.

The AV has been used for years and definitely helps, the only major drawback is that we tend to underuse it volume wise in our patients for $$ reasons. Large dogs would probably need many many vials and at $400-600 each, that mounts quickly. It is currently almost unavailable for vets, some E clinics are finding some. Many dogs do fine without AV.

Vaccine is controversial on how well it works. I most certainly believe that dogs develop an immune response that works just like AV (heck it IS antivenin, it is just their own instead of that of horses). The reason I am certain of this is the several patients I have had over the years that have been bitten multiple times, not just a couple, I have had 3 patients that were bitten 5+ times in their life. By the time of the last one, they barely reacted to the bite other than local swelling! My concerns over the vaccine: how much immunity does it confer? is it multivalent-does it give immunity to the hematotoxin, the neurotoxin, the necrotoxin - all found in rattlesnake venom; it may give owners a false sense of security that their dog is "safe" from rattlesnakes and moccasins (it would have no effect on the more rare coral snake bite); how safe is the vaccine?

[danield33]

The AV has been used for years and definitely helps, the only major drawback is that we tend to underuse it volume wise in our patients for $$ reasons. Large dogs would probably need many many vials and at $400-600 each, that mounts quickly. It is currently almost unavailable for vets, some E clinics are finding some. Many dogs do fine without AV.


During my training we took care of a child that had a rattlesnake bite to the foot. He probably weighed 70-80 pounds and it took over 20 vials of AV (Cro-fab) to stabilize his coagulation panels.

No amputation was performed, and I was off service by the time he made a full recovery but I heard he was perfectly fine from a long term functional standpoint.

Although human and canine physiology are different I would assume that a dog weighing a similar amount would require a similar volume of AV. $$$$$

I also heard that they were stopping the production of coral snake AV based on lack of demand. Unfortunately there are still several confirmed bites a year and the coral snake has neurotoxic venom. The only saving grace with coral snakes is that they have a very difficult time delivering the venom and rarely even in confirmed bites do they kill people because of this. Eventhough the venom is significantly more toxic then a pit viper it is rare that an human will die from a coral snake. I still happens often however throughout the world.

DD

[Randy Clark]

dang they didnt make it sound that expensive i'll have to ry and find what iwas reading. maybe im mistaken about it all. as for spelling havent got spell check uploaded on this computer yet:smileinbo

[Randy Clark]

field and stream its a vaccination. two shots 18$they dont mention any risk with it.

[g8rvet]

Risk would not be that great. benefits, at this point are questionable.

Daniel, a young man in my area got over 100 vials, he was 12 years old and not real big! He survived, I just saw him the other day and he looks good.

I did a literature review in college regarding coral snake envenomation. Signalment was male, 18-25, with a large majority having blood alcohol elevations. One case the man actually held it to his tongue, proclaiming it was a King Snake (guess when you are drunk, Red on Yellow, Kill a Fellow is hard to remember). He did not die but spent several weeks on a respirator.

[Randy Clark]

dang talk about drunk and stupid wow. guess i really dont do enough upland hunting with them their main problem would probably be water moccasins in the marsh while snipe hunting

[g8rvet]

moccasins are crotalids, same family as rattlesnakes and copperheads. If I had to chose, I would pic a mocc bite over the other two. Not usually as bad, but I would still not want one!

[Randy Clark]

moccasins are crotalids, same family as rattlesnakes and copperheads. If I had to chose, I would pic a mocc bite over the other two. Not usually as bad, but I would still not want one!

i agrree with you there. i guess with the risk not known for the vaccine than i'll just spend more time trying to snake break them. guess that would help for both types of snake. the vaccine is only good for rattlesnakes or all types of venom?

[g8rvet]

I woulds supsect it would offer some help to rattlesnakes, mocc and copperheads. It would probably be of no use whatsoever in coral snakes

[Randy Clark]

I woulds supsect it would offer some help to rattlesnakes, mocc and copperheads. It would probably be of no use whatsoever in coral snakes

dont think griz or scout would hold still for a coral or get drunk enough to hold one to their tongue:smileinbo

about the risk involved what are the risk or known side effects ?

[g8rvet]

For the vaccine? Normal possible vaccine side effects I would suspect. Anaphylaxis, facial swelling, immune stimulation, etc. I would think no worse than normal yearly vaccines.

[Keith Yates]

Randy we see more pigmies while sniping than cotton mouths. Unfortunately we had an english pointer get bit in the nose. We got back to the trucks right at dark and as we were airing the dogs one last time we heard the dog yip once. We walked over with flash lights and there it was pigmy. Dogs nose started swelling right away. A few hundred bucks later and walla. Dog was fine after a few days. Later in life the dog did develop diabetes and went blind eventually. Not sure why. She did live a pretty full life though.

[Randy Clark]

For the vaccine? Normal possible vaccine side effects I would suspect. Anaphylaxis, facial swelling, immune stimulation, etc. I would think no worse than normal yearly vaccines.

oh so not something inherit to this vaccine. good both dogs have never shown a problem with any thing else. are snake vaccines administered yearly also?

[Randy Clark]

Randy we see more pigmies while sniping than cotton mouths. Unfortunately we had an english pointer get bit in the nose. We got back to the trucks right at dark and as we were airing the dogs one last time we heard the dog yip once. We walked over with flash lights and there it was pigmy. Dogs nose started swelling right away. A few hundred bucks later and walla. Dog was fine after a few days. Later in life the dog did develop diabetes and went blind eventually. Not sure why. She did live a pretty full life though.

so what raced to the vet and got shots?

[g8rvet]

Not sure of how often it is administered. Any vet that carries it would know. I do not carry it.

[Randy Clark]

thanks

[bandit1]

I read this off of a coon hunter forum. An Old timer claims he carries pork fat saved from cooking. When a dog gets snake bit, he forces a heaping tablespoon down his throat. In an hour, the bitten dog is back hunting the next brace. I thought it was interesting, but not willing to trust it.

[Randy Clark]

I read this off of a coon hunter forum. An Old timer claims he carries pork fat saved from cooking. When a dog gets snake bit, he forces a heaping tablespoon down his throat. In an hour, the bitten dog is back hunting the next brace. I thought it was interesting, but not willing to trust it.

thanks chad dont know if i would trust it either:smileinbo

[danield33]

I read this off of a coon hunter forum. An Old timer claims he carries pork fat saved from cooking. When a dog gets snake bit, he forces a heaping tablespoon down his throat. In an hour, the bitten dog is back hunting the next brace. I thought it was interesting, but not willing to trust it.

My guess is that since many croatalid bites are dry bites that it just happens to be luck that this home remedy worked out.

I guess though that a large bolus of fatty food would shunt blood to the GI tract of the dog potentially reducing cirulation of the venom. Since the bite is typically in the skin or muscle of the animal this would make for a less vascular tissue bed which in turn would reduce systemic effects of the bite, it would not account for the local reaction of the bite which in many cases is the more pressing issue.

Dan D